This message is to all Clay Researchers who are descended from John Claye who arrived in the "Treasurer" in 1612. I can now state that John Claye, "The Immigrant" is not descended from the Sir John Claye who was knighted by King Edward IV at the Battle of Tewkesbury in 1471. Thanks to the amount of new material which is becomming available on the WEB we now have access to material that was only available to a researcher in England or a professional Geneologist there. I have been trying since the late 70's along with other Clay Researchers to find out the ancestry of John Claye, The Immigrant, especially if he was descended from Sir John Claye, Knighted in 1471. After all these years thanks to the Internet I found on two sites, one (www.richard111.com/tewkesbury1.htm) and the other (www.multiwords.de/geneology/BattlesofWarofRoses.html) that in a list of men who were knighted after the Battle of Tewkesbury Sir John Clay in both is refered to as Sir John Clay of Chesnut. Actually the correct name is Cheshunt which is a Manor in Hertforshire. These are the first documents which state what part of England John Clay was from. Also on the second web site a listing of men who fought for The House of York at the Battle of Towton in 1461, ten years before Tewkesbury, a Sir John Clay is listed. This is a bit confusing because there is a book, whose title escapes me right now, which is considered the Bible of English Knights, which lists every person who was knighted since the Conquest in 1066. This book lists only one Clay as being knighted, that is John Clay in 1471. After finding the reference to Sir John Clay of Cheshunt I querried "John Clay of Cheshunt, England" on Yahoo and on the first page is a listing for (Parishes-Cheshunt-A History of the County of Hertford: volume 3, printed in 1905). If you list John Clay in the search window and hit enter it will give a History of The Manor of Cheshunt starting on page 6 and a reference to John Clay and his Family on page 7. This states that the Manor of Cheshunt was held by Elizabeth Lady Say, widow of John Norbury, her life interest to the Manor was regranted in 1461. (Next comes the important part for Clay Researchers). In the same year of 1461 the reversion (or granting) of the Manor after the death of Elizabeth Lady Say was granted for life to Sir John Clay, Joan his wife, and John his son. The article goes on to state that in spite of this grant after the death of Elizabeth Lady Say in 1465 the Manor was granted to George Duke of Clarence and the heirs of his body. George was the brother of King Edward IV and King Richard III. On page 9 is given The History of the Manor of Theobalds. Let me add here that this History Of Hertfordshire is heavily referenced so you can see which Official Documents or State Papers these facts are based on. This Manor of Theobalds was also held along with the Manor of Cheshunt by Elizabeth Lady Say. After Lady Says death the manor came eventually into the posession of Edward Green, lets skip forward here to page 13 and the History of the Manor of Darcies or Cressbroke. This is the really important part. This Manor of Cressbroke after passing through many owners was passed by trustees of John Clay in a settlement of 1446 to other trustees who acting in accordance to the will of John Clay, confirmed the manor to his widow Joan and his son John. Let me stop here to note that I am a little confused here because these statements in the History and based on Official State Records indicate to me that there were two John Clays before the John Clay who was knighted in 1471. Not only that but it seems that both had a wife named Joan and a son named John. The History of the Manor of Cressbroke then states that in 1480, Cecily, daughter of John Clay, I'm not sure which one, and wife of Robert Green (there was a Robert Green knighted at Tewkesbury in 1471 along with John Clay) died siesed of the Manor of Cressbroke. For the Manor to be in Cecily Clay Greens possesion can only mean that Sir John Clay had no male heirs living at that time of 1480. Cecilys son and heir Edward Green was a minor at that time, he died in Jan. 1491/2. The manor then passed to Edwards sister Cecily, wife of William Burbage. Cecily Burbage,the granddaughter of Sir John Clay, died in 1521,siesed of the Manor of Cressbroke. At the time of her death in 1521 Cecily had remarried and was listed as Cecily Bedell.The Manor then passed to Cecily's son and heir Thomas Burbage. It was from this time that the Manor was held along with the Manor of Theobalds. These manors appear to have remained in the Burbage Family until 1564 when Robert Burbage sold or conveyed the Manor of Theobalds to Sir William Cecil, Lord Burghley, the famous Minister of Queen Elizabeth I. Lord Burghley rebuilt and expanded the Manor and Queen Elizabeth stayed there on many occasions during her reign. Eventually the Manor of Theobalds along with the other Manors passed to the Crown and the possesion of the Queen of King James I in 1607. The Manor of Theobalds became one of James' favorite Manors and he died there in March of 1625. I know this info may come as a disappointment to some Clay Researchers as I must admit that I was a little disappointed myself because the supposed link to Sir John Clay, tenuous as it was, was all we had as to the ancestors of John Claye, The Immigrant. I had always wondered if Porter Clays claim of our descent from a Sir John Claye, Coal Baron of Wales, who I knew was not a knight and the title, "Coal Baron Of Wales" did not exist may never the less have been possibly the case of our being descended from an earlier Sir John Clay who certainly existed and the Family History being changed and distorted with time. I recently saw a posting on another WEB site, I can't remember which one, in which another Clay Researcher stated that he had written to the College of Arms on London requesting info on Sir John Clay, knighted in 1471, and possible descendants. The College of Arms wrote back to say that they had no info on Sir John Clay other than that he was knighted by Edward IV in 1471. This came as a surprise to me because a few years after I started my Clay Research in 1976 I found a book in the West Palm Beach Geneology Library entitled "Two Tudor Books Of Arms" based on Harleian Manuscripts Nos. 2169 & 6163 and published by the Everton Geneology Publishing Company, I believe. You can now find this Book online. In the Book I was surprised to find the Coat of Arms of "Syr John Cley" illustrated as well as described in Heraldic terms. On the same page is the coat of arms of Thomas Rotherham, The Archbishop of York in the later 1400's. I believe this Sir John Clay was the John Clay knighted in 1471. This Tudor Book Of Arms is now online and you can see Sir John Clays arms on page 228 of the book. What surprised me was that his Coat of Arms was well illustrated and was a "Quartered" coat of arms. This meant that Sir John Clay had inherited not only his fathers Clay Coat of Arms but the Arms of the "Thweng Family". I don't know whether his father or grandfather or even an earlier ancestor had the orinal Clay Grant of Arms but one of his ancestors had married an heiress of the "Thweng Family" They were descended from Sir Marmaduke de Thweng who was one of the few English Knights to survive the slaughter at the Battle of Sterling Bridge against the Scots and Sir William Wallace, "Braveheart", in 1297. Another surprise was that Sir John Clays arms were described as being impaled with those of "Astley quartering Harcourt". These arms were specifically granted to Sir John de Astley, a Knight of the Garter and one of the most famous Knights of the 15th Century. Sir John de Astley was specially given the right to wear the Arms of Astley quartering Harcourt by King Henry VI. Impaling was the showing of a husbands arms on the left side of a shield with his wifes being on the right side, this was during their married life togather. So I knew that Sir John Clay had married a daughter of Sir John de Astley who died in 1486 leaving a widow Margery de Astley. I also recently found on the WEB that Sir John Clay was the High Sheriff of Hertfordshire in 1463. Also in a recent book on King Richard III by Josephine Wilkinson on page 69 there is letter from a servant of Sir John Paston to his master in Norwich stating that on 15 Sept 1460 several men (retainers of The House of York) came to Pastons mansion in London opposite The Tower Of London to request that Cecily, The Duchess of York and her sons George and Richard and daughter Margaret be allowed to stay in his mansion until The coming of her husband, Richard Plantagenet the Duke of York to London. One of these men was John Clay. So as you can see I don't understand The College of Arms with all the records available to them stating to a Clay Researcher that the only info they had on Sir John Clay was that he was knighted in 1471 by Edward IV at the Battle of Tewkesbury. I don't know for sure if the original John Clay who was given the first grant of arms had other male descendants beside his son John but it's probably unlikely because The College of Arms did state to the Clay Researcher that they could find no reissuing of the Clay Arms in the 1500's or later. Well even though we now know that Sir John Clay who was knighted in 1471 is not our Clay ancestor it helps us in our search to find the English Ancestors of John Claye, The Immigrant. I regret that I didn't discover this info before the death of Robert Young Clay last year who was a tireless Clay Researcher and whose specialty was Heraldry and Coats of Arms. We all owe so much to Robert and other Clay Researchers like him. It is on the firm foundation that they built that we continue our Clay research.