Jan 4 2003 to Robert Esling
I accept you comments in the inquiring spirit in which you made them.
I am probably as familier as anyone can be with the variations in spelling over the years, I have more than enough varient spellings within the various surnames in my own various lineages to fill a book.
About the spelling of Van Siclen versus the variant spellings available. I quote this excerpt from the Notarized Bible entry transcript. I and a few others believe it was written shortly after Maria Van Siclen was married on July 22 1814. You have probably already read it as I posted within the last week more or less.
Quote - "“Luther C. Eastling born May 30th 1791” and “Maria Eastling was born Sept 15th 1801”, that subsequent entries among many others in said family bible are the following “Luther and Maria VAN SICLIN Eastling was married July 22nd 1814”, “Fanny Hill Eastling born November the 20th 1837” “Francis Irons was married to Fanny Eastling April the 22 1854 in her 17 year”, “father VAN SICLEN died March the ?? in 1850”, that the entry of the birth of “Fanny Hill Eastling” is the tenth-entry of births of children of Luther and Maria Eastling, that the day of the month in the record of the death of “father VAN SICLEN” is to indistinct to read. That the mother of applicant is the Fanny Hill Eastling whose birth and marriage are recorded in said bible as above set forth."
We do not know when the Bible entries were written because the Bible has been lost - last seen about 1907 or somewhat later. However, in lieu of and without more conclusive evidence I choose to believe that the names Maria Van Siclin Eastling and Father Van Siclen were written shortly after Maria Van Siclen married in 1814 and the birth of Maria's first child. We do not know the birth date of her first child however it was between 1815 and 1820.
Consequently the name Van Siclen first appears in the Eastling lineage no earlier or later than between 1814 & 1815. Although it appears in Waddels Van Sickle genealogy as the progenitor of the New Lott Van Siclen's
Between 87 and 93 years later the spelling of Van Siclen is confirmed by the two deponents who wrote the affidavits.
We/I do not know when the variant spellings began to appear for Van Siclen. There are only two varients that we need concern ourselves with - Van Sickle and Van Siclen. The spelling of Van Sicklen appears no place in any records having to do with a linkage to the Eastling lineage. Van Sicklen is a spelling alleged by Doug and he has nothing, which to base his perceptions.
In Violetta Voorhees original DAR application, she primarily used the spelling of Van Sickle and made several spelling errors of the Van Sickle name. (it is quite easy to distinguish between the spelling errors and the correctly spelled Van Sickle).
Sometime in the later 1800's, probably between about 1875 and 1906, The spelling Van Sickle appears to have replaced Van Siclen in the Eastling family as it had been spelled between 1814 and 1820 by Maria Van Siclen. It is my belief that Van Sickle is the spelling prevalent in the Eastling family in the last quarter of the 1800's, which is why Violetta used it in her DAR application.
The DAR rejected Violetta's original application for reason's not known to us but I believe it was because of the name Van Sickle and perhaps because of the 6 more or less ways she had misspelled the Van Sickle name. It was after that rejection that Violetta was requested to provide affidavits which would confirm who her Revolutionary Veteran really was. This she did.
The deponents confirmed in their affidavits that Van Siclen was the correct spelling. Ferdinand Eastling a deponent spelled Van Siclen exactly the same each time. Fanny, another deponent appears not to have been quite certain of the spelling of Van Siclen or accidentally left off the last letter one time. This is a case of my not knowing if the horse or the cart is in front.
I guess a person can conclude that either Maria Van Siclen confirmed the spelling of Van Siclen in the affidavits or it could be said that the affidavits confirmed the spelling Maria Van Siclen entered into her Bible. In either event the spelling is identically written 83-97 years apart.
I have this policy - I unequivocally accept the earliest date for any event (in this case spelling) until additional evidence is discovered which is conclusive evidence that the date is wrong, the event is wrong, the spelling is wrong or whatever. My reasoning is based on the concept (not always correct)that the closer to any event that the research takes a person the greater the probability of accuracy.
I believe that Violetta was just as surprised as anyone to discover from the Eastling Bible that her Revolutionary Veteran's name was spelled Van Siclen and was also relieved to read in the affidavits of Ferdenand and Fanny that they had confirmed the Van Siclen spelling.
Fanny and Ferdinand were grandchildren of Cornelius Van Siclen and Catherine Johnson spoken of in the affidavits. In 1907 the deponents had one living sibling and many nephews and nieces who would have raised U.H.H. if they ever discovered (as they would have) that Fanny and Ferdinand had perjured themselves about the names of their grandparents Cornelius Van Siclen and Catherine Johnson. Knowing what I know about some of those people there isn't the slightest doubt in my mind that one or more might have notified the DAR headquarters that the deponents had perjured themselves in their affidavits.
I mentioned what I will now comment on in one of my postings and didn't push it because I cannot prove what I am about to write and quite frankly, it is of little meaning to me who believes me and who doesn't.
My Grandfather, Leon Eastling told me more than once when I was a child that I had a G. G. G. grandfather who had been a Revolutionary Soldier. In later years when I asked him how he knew he told me that he had been told by his father Cornelius Eastling and that his father Cornelius Eastling had heard it from his grandfather Cornelius Van Siclen. Cornelius Eastling was 17 when the family left Canada in 1848. Cornelius Eastling died in 1891, well before the DAR application and affidavits were submitted. What I have told you is important because one of the allegations made by both Doug and Richard is that the affidavit Cornelius Van Siclen was not a Revolutionary Veteran and they could prove he wasn't because "they" found no Revolutionary Records for Cornelius Van Siclen. What is significant is that I learned from my grandfather in the late 1930's, early 1940's that Cornelius Van Siclen was a Revolutionary Veteran who learned it from the mouth of his father Cornelius Eastling who learned it from the mouth of his grand father Cornelius Van Siclen while the family lived in Canada. The fact that Cornelius Eastling died in 1891 is conclusive evidence that my grandfather learned about the Revolutionary War experiences of Cornelius Van Sicklen many years before the DAR application or the affidavits were written.
I would prefer not doing so but because of the nature of your inquiry and my not knowing if you have read them, I am including the three affidavits with this post.
The sworn and notarized affidavit from Violetta Voorhees:
Violetta Voorhees being first duly sworn deposes and says that she is now a resident of the City of Minneapolis in said, county, that she was born in Hobart, Ind. January 1st 1855, that her parents were Frank Irons and Fanny his wife, maiden name Fanny Easlin as she spelled her name, that her father spelled his name Easling: that applicant now has in her possession the family bible of Luther Calvin Eastling and Maria his wife who maiden name was Maria Van Sicklin and bible now owned by Ferdinand Easlin Jr. of Bryant S. Dakota, the great grand son of said Luther Calvin Eastling; that the first entry in the family records of said bible is as follows:
“Luther C. Eastling born May 30th 1791” and “Maria Eastling was born Sept 15th 1801”, that subsequent entries among many others in said family bible are the following “Luther and Maria VAN SICLIN Eastling was married July 22nd 1814”, “Fanny Hill Eastling born November the 20th 1837” “Francis Irons was married to Fanny Eastling April the 22 1854 in her 17 year”, “father VAN SICLEN died March the ?? in 1850”, that the entry of the birth of “Fanny Hill Eastling” is the tenth-entry of births of children of Luther and Maria Eastling, that the day of the month in the record of the death of “father VAN SICLEN” is to indistinct to read. That the mother of applicant is the Fanny Hill Eastling whose birth and marriage are recorded in said bible as above set forth.
(Signed) Violetta Voorhees
Subscribed and sworn & before me April 6 1907
The signed and sworn affidavit from Fanny Eastling Kelly.
I, Fanny Kelly residing in the City of Minneapolis in said County am the daughter of Luther Calvin Eastling and Maria VAN SICLEN or SICKLEhis second wife. My mother was the daughter of Cornelius VAN SICLEN or VAN SICLE and Catherine Johnson his first wife. Mrs. Violetta Voorhees of the City of Minneapolis, Minn. is my daughter by my first husband Frank Irons.
My grandfather Cornelius VAN SICLEN was a soldier in the ware of the American Revolution being enlisted from the State of New York. He died at an extensive old age Bacauta in the province of Quebec. I saw him in my childhood. I do not remember of ever hearing him speak of his revolutionary services: but I have often heard my mother, his daughter tell of them and such services were as much a matter of family history as any other even in the family life and official documents evidencing such service were kept by some of the older members of the family and finally became of them I do not know.
(Signed) Fanny Kelly
Subscribed and sworn to before me April 17th 1907
Notary Public, Hennepin County, Minn.
The signed and sworn affidavit from Ferdinand Eastling
Ferdinand Eastling being first duly sworn deposes and says that he resides at Thorp in said County that he is seventy eight (78) years of age, that he is the son of Luther Calvin Eastling and Maria VAN SICLEN, his second wife, that she was the daughter of Cornelius VAN SICLEN and his wife Catherine Johnson his wife, that DEPOSED KNEW HIS SAID GRANDFATHER CORNELIUS VAN SICLEN IN HIS LIFETIME; that said grandfather was a revolutionary soldier from the State of New York, that the fact of this service as such was a well known fact of family history and documents evidencng such history were for a long time a family possession, but where they now are do not know.
(Signed) Firdenand Eastling
Subscribed and sworn before me April 22, 1907
Geo Bumle (could be spelled Brume)
Notary Public Clark Co. Wis.
Bob wrote - ""Senior" does not necessarily prove that the person in question had a son by the same name. 200 years ago Senior often was used to denote the elder of 2 men with the same name, regardless of whether they were related. While the "SNR" on the stone may mean he had a son named Cornelius, it is also possible that a grandson named Cornelius was the reason the "SNR was added to the stone. I have no problem believing that the Cornelius referred to in the historical marker is the same Cornelius that is buried inside, despite the one letter difference in the spellings."
HERE IS THE DICTIONARY DIFINITION OF "SENIOR - 1. OF THE GREATER AGE, OLDER: WRITTEN SENIOR AFTER THE NAME OF A FATHER WHO'S SON HAS BEEN GIVEN THE SAME NAME."
SENIOR IS ALWAYS USED to denote the elder of 2 men with the same name – today as well as 200 years ago.Relationships are not relevant in the example you give – only age is relevant when both names are identical.
SENIOR IS NEVER USED TO DENOTE A GRANDSON having the same name spelling as his grandfather.- not today and not 200 years ago.
Doug attempted minimize the significance of Snr after Cornelius Van Siclen Snr is the identical manner which you propose.You are both wrong of course – or the people who created the Dictionary are wrong. I place my money on the Dictionary and not for an instant do I doubt that Senior appears after Cornelius Van Siclen Snr because he had a son named Cornelius Van Siclen Jr. Snr is never now and never has been used when identically spelled names of two men are separated by a full generation as with grandson and grandfather.
I fail to understand where both you and Doug picked up the thinking that “Senior” can be used to denote a grandson of the man after which the “Senior/Sr,/Snr.” appears. Senior cannot be and is never used in that manner!
Senior is ONLY USED FOR A FATHER/SON RELATIONSHIP NEVER A GRANDFATHER/GRANDSON RELATIONSHIP.I also believe that the people who were responsible for Snr. appearing on the Marker were just as cognizant of the meaning and useage of Senior as we are today. If there was not a son named after the father, then Snr. would not be engraved on the Marker of Cornelius Van Siclen Snr.
You will note that the dictionary describes Senior as – “WRITTEN SENIOR AFTER THE NAME OF A FATHER WHO'S SON……”.
Why would any one have paid the added expense to have the letters Snr. engraved on the Marker if there had not been a son with the identical name?
Bob wrote – “I have no problem believing that the Cornelius referred to in the historical marker is the same Cornelius that is buried inside, despite the one letter difference in the spellings."
Gusman - There is much more than a one letter difference.
What about the wife who’s name is recorded on her Marker as Hanna H. VanSiclen Snr. and who was born five years after the wife of the man you are on record as saying that -“I have no problem believing that the Cornelius referred to in the historical marker is the same Cornelius that is buried inside."
Gusman - I assume by historical marker you are referring to the historical marker containing the names of the Van Sicklen children and not the the Grave Marker containing the name Cornelius Van Siclen Snr.
Gusman - The one letter difference of which you speak is not merely a one-letter difference. People have been executed because of a one-letter difference in names. – and fortunes and land have been lost because of a one-letter difference. A difference of one letter is not to be downplayed.
Here are the differences
Cornelius Van Siclen Snr(has a child named Cornelius Van Siclen Jr.)Year of birth known but not month/day
Cornelius Van Sicklen(no child named Cornelius Van Siclen Jr.) Exact year, month, date of birth known.
Hanna H. Van Siclen Snr. – age is 70 (first name Dutch spelling of Hanna – H. first letter of maiden name – Dutch burial custom – maiden name unknown)
Annetje Lawson –age is 75 (maiden name begins with L.
Note the 5 year difference in ages.
I will not be commenting about Doug's alleged errors in the affidavits, marriage in the DAR application etc. All of the data provided by Violetta Voorhees in her DAR application is wrong because it is based on her researching the name Van Sickle and not Van Siclen. Violetta did not know the name Van Siclen existed at the time she completed her DAR application and researched the Van Sickle information. Only after and for whatever reason the DAR rejected her initial DAR application entries, did Violetta, after receiving the Eastling Bible, discover the real name of her Revolutionary Veteran.
I will no longer be responding to future postings by anyone about the Van Siclen/Van Siclen Snr./Van Sicklen/Lawson/Lossing issue on this or the Van Sickle/Van Sicklen forum. I have presented what little evidence I have and do not plan on continuing with the on going debates/arguments about anything already covered.
If additional data is desired by anyone please contact me by E-mail.
Thank you Robert for letting me know that you have no information about a Luther Calvin Esling. I too know that the LDS records are riddled with errors. I would like to believe that Luther Calvin Esling and Luther Calvin Eastling are the same person. The difference between May 30 1791 and May 30 1781, I believe is an error by someone transcribing the year 1781. Consequently until something more conclusive comes along I will not include the parents of Luther Calvin Esling into the Eastling lineage. I will however to continue to keep the information as a source notation for future reference by someone else who may be luckier, or more skilled and proficient than I have been.
Here are some of the spelling variants for Eastling: perhaps you know about them perhaps not.
The following was researched and written by (name will be furnished if requested by E-mail).
ESLING is probably the Original surname but a great number of variations have evolved over at least the last 500 years, namely
Eslinge, Esteling, Estelinge, Easling, Essling, Esterling, Easterling, Eastling, Eslin, Eslen, Easlin, Easlin, Easlen, Eastlea, Estlea, Easlea, Easley, Eassley, Essley, Essly, Esley, Essla Eslea etc,
It originated as a surname on the east coast of England in the aftermath of the invasion of various peoples of 'Anglo-Saxon' stock who arrived from northern Germany and southern Denmark & Sweden (the Jutland peninsular and the island between Danish Jutland and Sweden) after the Romans withdrew from Britain at the beginning of the 5th century A.D., i.e. the early 400"s
Some very rare surnames have developed from the personal names of the tribal leaders of those early groups and ESLING is one of the oldest. It derives from one such tribal leader called ESLA, who is mentionedfor what it is worthin the dynastic tree for the British Royal Family as having arrived in Britain from N. Germany or Southern Denmark about 411 A.D. and being 15 generations before the greatest of the English medieval kingsAlfred the Great who died in 899 A.D.
The ESLINGA were there identified from very early times as stemming from that source as ESLA's people, and they can be found in the period after 1500, still living on the eastern seaboard of Britain, from mainly the counties of Suffolk, Norfolk, Linconshire and Leicestershire in and around the Midland and East Anglian Region, right up to Aberdeenshire in Scotland.
ESLA's involvement as a chieftain/sub-king of the Northumbrian dynasty saw him ranging up and down the East Coast in all probability during his lifetime. There is a place name in Northumbrian called ESLINGTON, which means 'the tun (township) of ESLA's inga (people or followers).
If you have forbears who carried this surname or you do so today; it derives almost certainly from this exceptional character. Allowing for the absence of any standard spelling system in the English language until comparatively recently (William Shakespeare spelled his surname in at least 22 different ways in his lifetime, and HE was literate) the variations in this surname have evolved because 'old England' (pre-1837, when the Registration of Births Deaths and Marriages were made possible though NOT compulsory till later) relied upon the Minister/Vicar/Priest of the local Parish Church recording Baptisms and Marriagesand noting Burialsfrom people who were quite often not literate and spoke in an accent or dialect with which he was not familiar. He therefore recorded the name he HEARD as he assumed it should be spelled.
When folks migrated from Britain to North America or Australia, they found that the new countries had established demographic systems which were much more standardized which seems to be why many of the ESLINGs' and EASLEAs' etc were formalized into EASLEY after arriving in the Americas after the1500's. Much later, the central European migrants arriving at Staten Island were greeted by Scots immigration officers who translated the unprounceable Polish/Hungarian/Russian names into solid British though more often Scottish - names. Which is why the great American composer Aaron Copeland bore a good Scottish name and not the 'KAPLAN' that his father tried to get the immigration officer to comprehend.
Gusman – If you would like additional information or have comments about the origin of the Esling name – please correspond by E – mail. With the posting of this letter, I am ending my involvement in the argument.
I will not be responding to the last post from Doug that I received today.