Sunday, 30 August, 2009
Good morning Boots,
Thanks for your reply to my previous post.
There are variances as you note between the account I provided and that given by Henry Norms in the book you cited.The primary problems are 2 as I see it: (1) Mr. Norms did not use, or have access to, the same sources now available and used by Mr. Richardson and myself, and (2) the Farrar family descended from the Ferrers family of Groby through various marriages, and not in the male line.
First, as to part of the book cited in your post (my points/observations are interweaved below):
" I wish to call attention to the 1898 publication by Henry Norms, Baddesley Clinton Hall, it's manor, church, hall with some discussion.. (link to pdf at end of this post).
Starting on page 98 through 123 there is in depth discussion of the Family Ferrers, The Barony of Groby and the Barony of Chartley. Especially covered are the Ferrers of Groby.
Allow me to quote page 112.
The Ferrers of Baddesley Clinton derive their lineal descent from the earls of Derby through the line of the barons of Groby. William de Ferrers, earl of Derby, who died 1254, had by his second wife Margaret de Quinci two sons Robert and William. His elder son Robert succeeded to the earldom in 1254 but lost it by attainder in 1266 (He was on the losing side of the civil war known as the 2d Barons Revolt, the lst produced the Magna Carta, my editorializing). William succeeded to the lands and honours of Groby co.Leicester in right of hismother, and from thim the Ferrers of Tamworth castle and Baddesly Clinton are descended.
I. William de Ferrers. He was the second son of William de Ferrers, earl of Derby, by his wife Margaret de Quinci, and he succeed in right of his mother to the barony of Groby, which he held by tenure but it does not appear that he was ever summoned to Parliament.
His First wife was Joan, daughter of Hugh, baron Dispencer (note: This claim has apparently been set aside per above testimony..i.e Douglas Richardson. Evidence as to having been one of three daughters of Alan Durward by Margery of Scotland.ed:)by whom he left issue William his successor , and Anne, who became the wife of John, lord Grey de Wilton.
There is no evidence for a wife Joan.The account in Complete Peerage says his wife was said to have been Anne, daughter of Hugh le Despenser [CP V:343], but no source is cited for this statement.If this had been the case, this would have involved consanguinity (and the need for a dispensation) for the marriage of their granddaughter Anne to Edward le Despenser (1335).
Anne, wife of Sir William de Ferrers of Groby, has been found in a contemporary document, cited in the Ballad Minstrelsy of Scotland (1871), as being called 'the Countess of Fife in Scotland, widow of Colban and mother of MacDuff, Earls of Fife; ["Comitissa de Fife, in Scotia, vidua Colbani et mater Macduffi, Comitum de Fife"].See Douglas Richardson's post, "C. P. Correction: Anne Durward, wife of Willam de Ferrers, Knt., of Groby, Leicestershire" dated 19 December 2008, at soc.genealogy.medievalor through the Medieval Genealogy newsgroup (via Rootsweb or Google).This will also be mentioned in Doug's forthcoming book, Plantagenet Ancestry (planned publication in 2009 or 2010).
The daughter alleged to have been a wife of John de Grey of Wilton (Anne) has also been found to be erroneous.John de Grey's wife was Maud de Verdun.
additionally, you wrote:
" His second wife was Eleanor, daughter of Matthew, lord Lovaine of Staines, who survived him and remarried William Douglas in 1290. This issue of this marriage, in all probability was Alianor Ferrers, who became the wife of Robert, fifth "Baron Fitzwalter...."
The Eleanor de Ferrers who married Sir Robert FitzWalter (d. 1325) as his 2nd wife was the daughter of William's older brother Robert de Ferrers, the disinherited Earl of Derby (d. before 20 Feb 1279/80) and his wife Eleanor de Bohun.Robert and Eleanor also had a son and heir Sir John de Ferrers of Chartley, co. Stafford, the ancestor of the future Ferrers of Chartley, and the family of Ferrers of Wemme.
" Take note, that there is no Anne Durward mentioned as a wife of this William de Ferrers who who is the same William de Ferrers who supposedly married Ann Durward.
II William de Ferrers, (son of William and Margaret de Quinci) aged eighteen at his fathers death. He was summoned in parliament Sept 26, 1300, and possibly as early as 1297, ....at all events he was the first baron Ferrers of Groby by writ. He married Elizabeth (or as other records state Margaret and Helena), daughter of John, lord Segrave of Caledon. He was an active soldier and frequently engage in thewars with Scotland, in the reign of Edward I. and Edward II.., and was at the siege of Caerlaverock in 1300... he died 1325 and was succeeded by his son Henry.(the document to which I am responding says that his wife was Margaret or Alice de Seagrave. the only commonality between the two documents is Margaret de Seagrave.)
Henry de Ferrers, who was summoned to parliament drom 3131 to 1342. In 1337 King Edward III, gave him the manor of Tettenhall Regis, nar Wolverhampton, in consideration of his great and faithful services, and he obtained also from the king the manor of Newport in Essex to hold byh one knight's fee....One wife was undoubtedly Isabel, four and youngest daughter and coheir of Theobald, lord Verdon of Wheble. This lady was possibly his second wife, and was certainly his relict (widow), since she is designated as vidua in the patent roll of June 14, 1345. For her dower she had amongst other lands the manor of Fleckenoe, co. Warwisk, and a portion of the manor of Lutterworth, co Leicester, which she held to her death in 1349. One authority states that the first wife of Lord Ferrers was Elisabeath, daughter and coheir of Gilbert de Clare, earl of Cloucester, but this is probably inaccurate.Isabella de Verdon was the youngest daughter of Theoblad de Verdon by his second wife Elizabeth de Burgh, the relict of John de Burgh, and daughter and coheir of Gilbert de Clare by Joan Plantagent. ...Lord Ferrers died Sept 15, 1343, leaving a daughter Anne, married to Edward, lord Dispencer and succeeded by his won.
IV William de Ferrers. He was under age at his fathers death, but was summoned to Parliament on March 15, 1354 to April 6, 1369. He married Margaret, daughter and coheir of William de Ufford, earl of Suffolk by whom he had issue
Henry his successor
Margaret wife to Thomas Beauchamp, earl of Warwidck.
Elizabeth a nun "
The Farrar descent runs as follows:
1. Alexander II, King of Scots=NN
2. Margery, illeg. daughter = Alan Durward
3. Anne Durward = 2) Sir William de Ferrers of Groby
4. Sir William de Ferrers of Groby (d. 20 Mar 1324/5) = Ellen/Margaret de Segrave
5. Anne de Ferrers = Sir Edward le Despenser [CP IV:275 and other sources]
6. Sir Edward le Despenser (d. 1375) = Elizabeth de Burghersh
7. Anne le Despenser = Sir Hugh de Hastings (d. 1386) [CP VI:356-7 and other sources]
8. Sir Edward Hastings (d. 6 Jan 1436/7) = 1) Muriel Dinham
9. John Hastings, Esq. of Elsing (d. 1477) = Anne Morley
10. Elizabeth Hastings = Sir Robert Hildyard of Winestead, co. York (d. 1501)
11. Katherine Hildyard = 2) William Girlington of Normandy and Frodingham, co. Lincoln (d. aft 4 Jul 1514)
12. Isabel Hildyard = Christopher Kelke of Barnetby-le-Wold, co. Lincoln (murdered 2 Feb 1523/4)
13. William Kelke, gentleman, of London (3rd son) (d. bef 28 June 1552) = Thomasine Skerne
14. Cecily Kelke = John Farrar, Esq., of Croxton, co. Lincoln (d. bef 26 May 1628)
15. William Farrar (3rd son), the emigrant
I hope the above is helpful in explaining the Farrar descent from the Ferrers family of Groby, and from Alexander II, King of Scots.