Thanks for the info, but have determined that your Lorenz and mine are not the same. Do you know Claire Utt? She and I have been corresponding on Lorenz and based on a book the I recently acquired, the Geisleden Ortsfamilenbücher, literally the city of Geisleden's family book, I determined that we have two different people. My Lorenz was born in Geisleden on July 9, 1830 and died April 1, 1831. When Claire and I first corresponded I only had a birth year and no date of death. Thanks again though for taking the time to pass on the information.