Hello Liz, I have a copy of Richard's birth certificate and Samuel is stated as being the father but that may not be true. I have found the family on all of the census records that pertain to their time period and Samuel and Eliza had 12 children. I have birth certficates for all of them. On the census records Eliza is listed as being born in Canterbury, Kent but I can find no record of a birth registration. I cannot find one for Samuel either. Samuel lived with his grandparents Richard Kitchen and Jane Groves until her married Eliza. I believe his mother was the daughter of Richard and Jane and her name is Mary. Eliza's father is listed as Frederick on their marriage certficate, but I can't find any trace of him either. These are my 2 biggest brick walls and have been for a very long time. Thank you very much for replying.I will try and find Toni Morrell through the message boards.