Hi Adam, Got the info over Christmas as discussed. According to my records Herbert W and James were the sons of Esther (Utterage c1848) and James Neaves c1843. Their siblings were John c1876, Florence c1872, Esther (aka Minnie) c1874, Ewin c1877, Annie c1879 and Sydney Percy c1886. Esther (Minnie) had a child with Harold Edward Brown who was a traveller with Brown (his father) and Poulson, the flour makers.This child was was Harold Edward Brown, nephew of the previously mentioned Neaves clan.He kept his name as Brown-Neaves and married Winifred Deeley.My uncle, Rowland David Brown-Neaves was one of their nine children, many of whom are still alive in Perth Western Australia. I have gone as far back as Edward c1801 and Esther c1804 (nee thurbourne)who were James'c1843 parents.This James also had eight siblings, uncles and aunties, it would appear of your James and Herbert.They were prolific breeders!! Anything else I can help you with or if you have any further info please let me know.I have researched a bit further back and sideways but space is limited here!