Hi Pat I thought I'd lost you somewhere in cyberspace si it's good to hear from you again. Indeed the young John mentioned on the 1851 census is my gr gr grandfather as his age would correspond with the info I have from his gravestone. If you don't have this info, let me know and I'll email it to you. What I found curious was that on the 1851 census, his mother Ann is living with her parents (paupers) and there is no sign of John (father) anywhere. I didn't know the date of Ann's death and I don't recall seeing an M.I. for her at St John's but I will have another look. Maybe it's an unmarked grave since they seemed to have been paupers...?? As for Ann and John's other sons.. I didn't manage to locate one of them on the 1881 census, but I did find John (jnr), Thomas and one of the other but I don't recall which. Unless I'm getting confused, Thomas was in the police force at the time and living in Hyde... and he started the black sheep... you have me most intrigued. Contact me by email (the usual one). Nice to hear from you again "cousin"!!