I have posted this to this forum to keep the record straight as to just where the Brighton Van Siclen Snr family./the affidavit Van Siclen family/the Van Siclen genealogy Van Siclen family argument is now at.
A while back Richard objected that I was posting Van Siclen information on the Van Sickle/Van Sicklen forum. Because Doug and Richard have chosen to attempt to meld the Affidavit Van Siclen family, the Brighton Van Siclen Snr family and Doug’s Van Sicklen family into one family which Doug and Richard continue to allege are really the three families melded into a single family named Van Siclen and from this melded family Doug and Richard allege that Maria Van Siclen descended,
I believe it is important that any reader interested in what has been a two year charade have the opportunity to continue following the argument. If you have grown tired of it the solution is simplicity itself –DON’T OPEN THE MESSAGES. Most of my recent responses to Doug have been on the Eastling forum, however considering that the subject has been and continues to be Van Siclen I believe that posting to the Van Siclen/Van SicklenForum is more correct than posting to the Eastling forum.
MY RESPONSE, after DOUG's POST IMMEDIATLEY BELOW, IS CONCLUSIVE AS EVIDENCE WILL EVER BECOME THAT THE FAMILIES ARE NOT BLOOD LINE DNA IDENTICAL AND CONSEQUENTLY CANNOT BE MELDED.
FOR THAT CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE PLEASE READ MY LATEST POSTING APPEARING IMMMEDIATELY AFTER DOUG’S POSTING.
Posted by: D G Van Curen (ID *****7681) Date: December 28, 2002 at 06:35:08
In Reply to: Re: Maria Van Siclen Bible by Ed Gusmanof 38
Eddy says: "a. Birth date - b. 1776 - calculated from the age - 74 - on cemetery marker of Cornelius Van Siclen Snr. –Whereas the Van Sicklen genealogy shows 1775 as birth date for Cornelius Van Sicklen. CORNELIUS VAN SICLEN SNR. WAS BORN 1 YEAR LATER THAN CORNELIUS VAN SICKLEN."
Obviously, Eddy is as good at math as he is at genealogy. Cornelius Van Sicklen was born Sep 4, 1775 at Poughkeepsie and died Mar 19, 1850. By the time I was in the 2nd grade, I could do the math on that and see his age at death was 74. Time for Eddy to go back to grade school. Eddy's whinings about spelling and dates are nothing more than a desperate attempt at distraction. At the heart of this is research, however, as land records and historical writings establish who this Brighton couple truly is. Six families left together from Dutchess County after selling lands there. All six appeared in the "Lawson" settlement in 1804.
As for Cornelius having a "junior"...it is true that the Fishkill couple did not...but neither did the Brighton Couple. Their children are listed on the gate marker at Brighton, and a Cornelius Jr is not among them.(the names all match the names of children for the Fishkill couple) However, Cornelius' son, Ferdinand, who was born in Dutchess County and buried in Brighton, did have a son named Cornelius. Everyone reading this is aware that if the "grandfather" and "grandson" have the same name, Grandfather would be known as "Senior". Eddy is so desperate to cling to his fantasy couple, he is willing to make up any rationalization to distract from the truth. I am sure everyone recognizes that he is simply "barking at the moon". Nice try Eddy...but noone is buying.
The following information was added to the Eastling forum Dec 30 2002:
Name: Ed Gusman
Subject: Re: Maria Van Siclen Bible
Added on Date: 12/30/02
Message Number: 38
Body of Message:
Dec 28A 2002
Gusman – Quoting what Doug wrote that I said – “Eddy says: "a. Birth date - b. 1776 - calculated from the age - 74 - on cemetery marker of Cornelius Van Siclen Snr. –Whereas the Van Sicklen genealogy shows 1775 as birth date for Cornelius Van Sicklen. CORNELIUS VAN SICLEN SNR. WAS BORN 1 YEAR LATER THAN CORNELIUS VAN SICKLEN."
Gusman – Quoting what Doug wrote. – “Obviously, Eddy is as good at math as he is at genealogy. CORNELIUS VAN SICKLEN WAS BORN SEP 4, 1775 AT POUGHKEEPSIE AND DIED MAR 19, 1850. BY THE TIME I WAS IN THE 2ND GRADE, I COULD DO THE MATH ON THAT AND SEE HIS AGE AT DEATH WAS 74. Time for Eddy to go back to grade school. Eddy's whinings about spelling and dates are nothing more than a desperate attempt at distraction. At the heart of this is research, however, as land records and historical writings establish who this Brighton couple truly is. Six families left together from Dutchess County after selling lands there. All six appeared in the "Lawson" settlement in 1804”.
Gusman –By now you have no doubt read your error. What were you attempting to prove? Cornelius Van Siclen Snr.’s age is 74 and is engraved on his marker.
The required math exercise to calculate the year of Cornelius Van Siclen’s BIRTH is: (death year) – (death age) = Year Born. Try this one for fit………
Cornelius Van Siclen AE 74 Died 1850 (from his marker)
1850 – 74 = 1776 YEAR BORN!
Why do you have to come to me for a detailed explanation of how birth dates are calculated when the year of death and age at death are known?
I think the time is past when you should begin a series of apologies for the comments you displayed with your unproven allegations about my mathematical and research qualifications.
Doug wrote – “ At the heart of this is research, however, as land records and historical writings establish who this Brighton couple truly is. Six families left together from Dutchess County after selling lands there. All six appeared in the "Lawson" settlement in 1804.”
Gusman –What has been engraved on the Brighton couple cemetery markers cannot be abrogated by whatever records Doug alleges are valid. Quoting Doug -“who this Brighton couple truly is.” – That fact is engraved on their Brighton Cemetery Marker. The only - “land record”- required is the Cemetery Marker located on the land in which Cornelius Van Siclen Snr and Hanna H. Van Siclen Snr. are buried. The - “historical writings”- are the engravings on their Cemetery Marker and are more than adequate for establishing – “who this Brighton couple truly is”. “Who this couple truly is” – follows.
THEIR NAMES ARE CORNELIUS VAN SICLEN SNR. AGE 74, DIED 1850, BORN 1776. HANNA H. VAN SICLEN SNR. AGE 70, DIED 1849, BORN 1779. AGES HAVE BEEN CALCULATED FROM THEIR RESPECTIVE AGES OF 74 AND 70. THEY HAD A SON NAMED CORNELIUS VAN SICLEN JR. HANNA USED THE DUTCH SPELLING “HANNA” FOR HER FIRST NAME. THE MAIDEN NAME OF HANNA H. IS NOT KNOWN BUT BEGINS WITH THE LETTER H.
The single corresponding match between the Van Siclen Snr. family and the Van Sicklen family is the name Cornelius and their death dates.
You appear to have a problem accepting the fact that one of the 6 families moving to the Lawson Settlement in/near Brighton was named Van Siclen Snr.
Has it occurred to you that perhaps your research of names is flawed and one of the six families moving to the Lawson settlement was Cornelius Van Siclen Snr. and his wife Hanna H. Van Siclen Snr. and their son Cornelius Van Siclen Jr, perhaps additional children. One of the son's was certainly not Ferdinand Van Sicklen. If Ferdinand had been a son of Van Siclen Snr. the name on Ferdinands Marker would have been Ferdinand Van Siclen.
DOUG WROTE – “EVERYONE READING THIS IS AWARE THAT IF THE "GRANDFATHER" AND "GRANDSON" HAVE THE SAME NAME, GRANDFATHER WOULD BE KNOWN AS "SENIOR". Eddy is so desperate to cling to his fantasy couple, he is willing to make up any rationalization to distract from the truth.”
DICTIONARY DEFINITION – “SENIOR - 1. OF THE GREATER AGE; OLDER: WRITTEN SR. AFTER THE NAME OF A FATHER WHO’S SON HAS BEEN GIVEN THE SAME NAME: OPPOSED TO JUNIOR.”
SNR./SR./SENIOR. IS WRITTEN AFTER THE NAME OF A FATHER WHO’S SON HAS BEEN GIVEN THE SAME NAME.
You Doug are posting to the Internet world of mature adults – allegations such as you just wrote about (Snr./Sr.Senior) make you look less than competent. .
I think it is Doug who is – “so desperate to cling to his fantasy couple, he is willing to make up any rationalization to distract from the truth.” Why on this little green earth did you write – “IF THE "GRANDFATHER" AND "GRANDSON" HAVE THE SAME NAME, GRANDFATHER WOULD BE KNOWN AS "SENIOR".?” Every book every written that uses Snr./Sr/Senior as a man’s suffix to his surname, be it Fact, Fiction, biography or all documents have always applied Senior in the application as meaning a father & son relationship with the son having the identical birth name of his father.
The factual truth is that Cornelius Van Siclen Snr. had a son named Cornelius Van Siclen Jr. Re: English dictionary for definition of Senior/Sr./Snr. I was quite curious as to how Doug was going to rationalize the Snr. on the Cemetery marker of Cornelius Van Siclen Snr. – Doug’s attempted explanation was indeed novel, quite imaginative but dead wrong!.
Doug is trapped in his personal web of un-provable allegations and his inability to use the dictionary.
Doug, in an earlier posting, wrote about the exact match BIRTH DATES of the three couples. Because of the revelations on the Brighton couple’s marker which revealed their ages at death and date of death, from which their birth years have been calculated, Doug can no longer continue to allege that – “the three couples have the identical birth dates”. Consequently, I doubt that there is a reader of this forum who would now believe Doug’s previous allegation that the three couples are one and the same people.
C. Van Siclen Snr b. 1776
C. Van Sicklen b. 1775
Hannah H. b. 1779
Annetje L. b. 1774
I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN READING DOUG’S EXPLANATION REGARDING HOW PEOPLE BORN 1 AND 5 RESPECTIVE YEARS APART CAN BE IDENTICAL COUPLES !!!
Obviously they are not and cannot be identical couples The couples are uniquely different families. Learn to accept it Douglas – “this time the records are carved in stone and cannot tampered with by you”…
The Brighton Cemetery markers for Cornelius Van Siclen Snr. age 74 and Hanna H. Van Siclen Snr.age 70 ends Doug’s charade and attempt to meld the affidavit Van Siclens into any known Van Sicklen lineage because Doug rejects the notarized affidavit testimony wherein Catherine Johnson is shown as the wife of Cornelius Van Siclen and mother of Maria Van Siclen.
Doug’s Van Sicklen genealogy is riddled with errors in the area which he attempts to meld the affidavit Van Siclens with the Brighton Cemetery Van Siclen Snr.’s and the Van Sicklen genealogy Van Sicklens’ and the Reform Fishkill Church FV Van Siclens’ - because of Doug’s failure to follow DNA lineage’s based on a paper trail of parents names. Doug’s helter skelter application of variant name spellings without first establishing a DNA paper trail using the names of parents, dooms the Van Siclen versus Van Sicklen transpositions to failure.
Both Doug and the readers need to understand that the Van Siclen Snr.’s need not have been one of the 6 families that moved into the “Lawson” settlement together. THE VAN SICLEN SNR.’S COULD HAVE SETTLED EARLIER OR LATER AND INTO A DIFFERENT LOCALITY ALTOGETHER. It is obvious that their Cemetery Marker have been moved from some other location to the brick wall. Perhaps their Markers were located in the same cemetery only a different plot. Perhaps another cemetery nearby, Perhaps from a farm, perhaps from another locality nearby or many miles away. Unless a historical record of burials in the Van Sicklin cemetery is available, Doug has no method of determining where the Van Siclen Snr.s’ were originally buried. All that is certain is that their markers were moved from “some other palce” to the brick wall probably constructed in the mid to late 30’s or late 40’s to early 50’s. A careful look at the mortar lines does not reveal enough weathering to have placed the brick wall much earlier.
A history of when the cemetery was founded and when the walls were built would be interesting reading.
The Van Siclen Snr.’s being buried in a Van Sicklin Cemetery is not evidence that the Van Siclen Snr. family moved into the Lawson settlement at any give date of any given year or even lived in the settlement prior to their death. The evidence of their markers is evidence by the engravings alone and nothing more.
As I have told Doug – the Brighton Cemetery markers for Van Siclen Snr.s’ have closed the door against the fantasy world in which Doug lives. The elements that destroyed Doug’s fantasized allegations are as follows:
1.THE DIFFERENT BIRTH DATES BASED ON THE VAN SICLEN SNR.’S AGES AT THEIR DEATH.
2. THE ABBREVIATION SNR. APPEARING AFTER THE VAN SICLEN SNR. NAME – DICTIONARY.
3. THE DUTCH SPELLING OF THE NAME HANNA. – WHICH APPEARS IN NO OTHER VAN SICLEN GENEALOGY DOCUMENTS.
4. THE H. AT THE END OF HANNA - THE FIRST LETTER OF HANNA’S MAIDEN NAME.