Just passing by and commenting with a response to Mr. R.A. McCool’s posting number 718 on Sept. 26, 2001 about Mr. McCool’s reply to – “Van Siclen/Van Sicklen Controversy revisited” by Gusman.
I am posting this in two locations – one as a response to Mr. McCool’s post 718 on Sept. 26 and the second at the top of the forum
Posted by Mr. McCool
"I, Fanny Kelly residing in the City of Minneapolis in said County am the daughter of Luther Calvin Eastling and Maria Van Siclen or Sickle his second wife. My mother was the daughter of Cornelius Van Siclen or Van Sicle and Catherine Johnson his first wife. Mrs. Violetta Voorhees of the City of Minneapolis, Minn. is my daughter by my first husband Frank Irons...."
Since Catherine Johnson was Cornelius Van Sicklen's SECOND wife, does this mean that Fanny (Eastling) Kelly is alluding to a third wife for Corney and did not know about Femmetje Vanderveer?
Or, does it mean that Fanny had no idea what she was "face-value-evidencing" about?
Hope my following response to your above posted message will help to clear up your confusion.
How did you come up with the interpretation that Catherine Johnson was Cornelius Van Sicklen’s SECOND wife. Fanny Kelly Eastling in her affidavit very clearly states two things –
“Luther Calvin Eastling and Maria Van Siclen or Sickle his second wife.”
“Cornelius Van Siclen or Van Sicle and Catherine Johnson his first wife.”
I suspect it has been self evident to most people who have read your posting that Fanny Eastling Kelly in her affidavit is writing about her mother Maria Van Siclen, whom Fanny refers to as – “Luther Calvin Eastling and Maria Van Siclen or Sickle his second wife.” and that Catherine Johnson was the first wife of Cornelius Van Siclen. Fanny stated conclusively in her affidavit that – “Catherine Johnson his first wife.”
It is self-evident from Fanny Kelly Eastling’s affidavit,that both men - Luther and Cornelius each had two wives. The first unknown wife of Luther died. Cornelius's first wife (Catherine) died sometime after giving birth to Maria Van Siclen. Luther second wife was Maria Van Siclen the daughter of Cornelius and Catherine Johnson. The name of Cornelius’s second wife is not recorded in Fanny’s affidavit. The second marriage for Cornelius took place while Maria Van Siclen Eastling was living (how else would Maria have known that Cornelius remarried.
I trust this will clear up your confusion that led you to believe that Fanny was alluding to a third wife, which from the affidavit it is clear that Fanny was not making an allusion to any non-existent third wife.Amazing what rampant specualtion without reading the facts can do to one's creditability.
I am forced to conclude that Fanny knew what - "face-value-evidencing" is about? More so than perhaps than Mr. McCool and certainly more than the postings by Van about the subject of affidavits and the surname of Van Siclen indicate. I base my conclusion on this statement which Mr. McCool wrote in his posting –“Since Catherine Johnson was Cornelius Van Sicklen's SECOND wife, does this mean that Fanny (Eastling) Kelly is alluding to a third wife for Corney and did not know about Femmetje Vanderveer?”
Fanny at no time referred to Catherine Johnson as the second wife of Cornelius – Why do you take it upon yourself to vilify Fanny by alleging, actually outright stating that Fanny did so write.
Who and or what is Femmetje Vanderveer and where did she come from in the Van Siclen ancestry for which I have an interest. I have never been able to conclusively take the Van Siclen ancestry back beyond Cornelius Van Siclen the father of Maria Van Siclen. Ah yes...I know from Wadell and other sources that the Van Siclen name did not originate with the father of Maria Van Siclen, however I have not been able to uncover conclusive evidence pertaining to the grandfather of Maria Van Siclen. That is until I uncovered the 1880-82 will using Ancesstry.com.
I of course do not even allege that the Cornelius Van Siclen farm, which Richard Stillwell refers to in his will as buying from Cornelius Van Siclen, is related as a father or grandfather to Cornelius Van Siclen, the father of Maria Van Siclen. I don’t even pretend to know the truth of that.
Fanny’s affidavit is more than face value evidence. It is notarized evidence based on Fanny swearing under oath that what she wrote was the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Can those, including yourself Mr. McCool, who continue to vilify Fanny and each of the three - posted affidavits say as much for your vilifying allegations.If you and others who continue to vilify the historical evidence of notarized documents and the people who wrote such documents, and yes, notarized affidavits are indeed historical documents made so by the Courts and which will stand the test of truth in any Court in the Nation, can’t provide conclusive documented evidence supporting your ongoing allegations, then simply knockoff the vilification of the two Eastling and one Voorhees affidavits which were posted on this forum back when.
Ancestry.com - records a New York City Will 1780-82 which includes the Cornelius Van Siclen name under Court Land & Probate Records -
Checked Will June 29, 2002 - following is content.
"New York City Wills, 1780-82
Viewing records 1-1 of 1 Matches
Quote - Page 142.--In the name of God, Amen. I, RICHARD STILLWELL, of the Township of Gravesend, in Kings County, (September 29, 1780). Lawful debts and funeral charges to be paid. I leave to my beloved wife, Ann Stillwell, all my lands and tenements as long as she remains my widow, but if in case she marry again it is then my will that she have œ1,000 and a negro girl in lieu of her dower right; to my two sons, Richard and Jaques, all my real estate as follows to my elder son, Richard, the old farm I live on; to my younger son, Jaques, ALL OF MY FARM AND PLANTATION I PURCHASED OF CORNELIUS VAN SICLEN; to my eldest daughter, Ida, the sum of œ1,000 and a negro girl; to my younger daughter, " Motye," œ1,000 and a negro girl. It is my will that my daughters, Ida and Motye, have their money or legacies at the expiration of five years after my decease out of my moveable estate, and further, that if any loss or losses be on my estate that my wife and children, names above mentioned, "Loose" in proportion to their legacies, or what I have given them, and if there be any overplus to go to my two sons, Richard and Jaques, equally. I make my trusty and well-beloved friends, Isaac Cortleyou, Richard Stillwell, and Rutgert Stillwell, executors. – Unquote
Note in the will – “ALL OF MY FARM AND PLANTATION I PURCHASED OF CORNELIUS VAN SICLEN;”
Anyone have any thoughts as to the Cornelius Van Siclen, from who Richard Stillwell purchased his farm, being either the Father or GrandFather of Maria Van Siclen? If land records exist from that period and those records would include the name of the wife of the Cornelius Van Siclen who sold his farm to Stillwell, perhaps it would be a lead into who this Cornelius Van Siclen descended from and the identity of his wife. I do not have the ability to research such records in N.Y. so may never know.
So there you have it. As early as 1780 the name Cornelius Van Siclen spelling appears in a 1780 Will. I suspect and based on Van's previously posted allegations. which I have reviewed, about the lack of significance for the "exact" spelling of a surname, Mr. Van is going to find it very difficult indeed to refute the spelling of Cornelius Van Siclen in the Stillwell Will.
Without evidence to the contrary, I suspect the Van Siclen spelling originated even earlier than 1780, perhaps with either the father, grandfather or great grandfather of the Cornelius Van Siclen who sold his farm and plantation to Richard Stillwell. Then the correctly spelled Cornelius Van Siclen again appears in a later Bible entry written by Maria Van Siclen about her father and herself, probably very close to her 1814 marriage date and certainly prior to the birth of the first of Maria's 10 children. The last documented appearance of the correctly spelled Cornelius Van Siclen name, in a relationship with Eastling, appears in the 1907 affidavits of Fanny and Ferdinand Eastling.
Of course the Cornelius Van Siclen spelling has appeared in additional sources so the spelling is not unique and never has been.