Nicholas James Wood:Information about Joan PLANTAGENET
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Joan PLANTAGENET (b. 22 Jul 1190, d. 04 Jul 1237)Joan PLANTAGENET (daughter of John PLANTAGENET and Agatha de FERRERS) was born 22 Jul 1190, and died 04 Jul 1237 in Aberconwy, Caernarvonshire, Wales.She married ap Iorwerth LLYWELYN on 1205, son of Iorwerth ap Owain.
Notes for Joan PLANTAGENET:
Joan was not a Princess of England she was titled Lady of Wales
The *only* place where Joan's mother is named is in Joan's
death notice in the Tewkesbury Annals. This says "Obiit domina
Johanna domina Walliae, uxor Lewelini, filia regis Johannis et
reginae Clemenciae, iii. kal. Aprilis."
The only problem in the above is that there never was a "Queen Clemencia".
This has led to a number of speculations about who Joan's mother was. The last time I counted there were a dozen different theories, some of which are actually plausible, and all of which so far are completely unprovable.
For further details, see "The children of Joan, Princess of
North Wales", by [William Addams Reitwiesner (email@example.com)],
in *The Genealogist* [APSG], vol. 1, no. 1 (Spring 1980), pp.
80-95, and the important followup by Andrew B. W. MacEwen in
the same journal, vol. 4, no. 2 (Fall 1983), pp. 137-138.
b. 22 Jul 1191, Eng.
d. 4 Mar 1237, Aber, Carnarvon, Wales
bur. Tarrant Crawford, Dorsetshire, Eng.
Some of the possibilities that have been named are as follows:
1. Agatha de Ferrers, daughter of William de Ferrers 4th Earl of Derby,
2. Clementia, wife of Henry Pinel,
3. Clemence, wife of Nicholas de Verdun,
4. Constance of Brittany, widow of Geoffrey, brother to Count John,
5. Clemence de Broc, husband of William de Tatlington, daughter of Ranulf de Broc,
6. Clemence de Fougeres, daughter of William de Fougeres
Of all the possibilities, Clementina, wife of Henry Pinel appears to be among the weakest cases. There appears to be no evidence as to when she married Henry though it would have been before 1210. No help there. However, In the Pipe Roll 12 John page 129 it reads " Robertus de Vallibus debet quinque optimes palfridos ut taceret de uxore Henrici Pinel"
Robert de Vaux was possibly the descendant of either Robert de Vals or Ranulph de Vaux both of whom held land in Cumberland in the 1080s. Could he have been also the brother of Clementina, why else would he pay King John to be silent about her, unless it was De Vaux who was the guilty party. The latter is much more likely as John was to release the name to the Pope in 1225/6 anyway as to who the real Clementia was. If it was John that was guilty then his payment would have been much higher as he saw this sort of behaviour as a way of controlling his barons and reducing their wealth.
So here is another plausible but completely unprovable theory by Nicholas James Wood June 2007. For notes on this theory see my file marked "The search for Regina Clementia: Mother of Joan, Lady of Wales"
Everything depends on the date of birth of Joan and the whereabouts of Prince John in the months prior. We have taken a period of June to October 1190. We know that John was in England in Winchester on the 28th August 1189 as this is the date that he married Hawise of Gloucester. This married was allowed by the Pope but only on the basis of 'no sex'. John's real reason may have been more in line with getting the huge lands that came with his new wife. In any event, there were no children of this marriage and it was eventually 'annulled which meant it had never happened. This is very important as will be apparent later on.
On the 3rd of September Prince John was in London for the crowning of his brother Richard. It should be noted that during the coronation the Jews had been banned from attending but a delegation did turned up and so enraged the people that they were chased , some were killed and their property burnt or seized. This has a certain amount of significanes later on in this story in that I believe that John gave confiscated property to William de Ferrers and it doing so it would have been perfectly possible that Joan was born in London as some researchers indicate.
It is certain that William de Ferrers 4th Earl of Derby, would have been there with his wife, Sibilla de Braose and his three children: 1. William his son, Millicent who was married to Lord Mortimer and AGATHA. (See BDEP page 196 second column). There seems to be a certain amount of consent among researchers that AGATHA was or was to become Prince John's mistress. If their affair started in September of 1189 or thereabouts it would have been put in abeyance as from January of 1190 as Prince John was in France in Bures and then Nonancourt in March of that year. During the next four months Prince John was to remain in France while his brother, Richard prepared for the crusade. Richard had made John Count of Mortain shortly before and it is possible that he took the opportunity to visit this area in Normandy. It was at this time quite possible that he met with Clemence de Fougeres, who at the time would have been married to Alan of Dinan. The towns of Fougiere and Mortain were very close, just a few miles apart. The marriage to Alan appears to have been childless and it might have been during this time that John began to think of the future.
Richard tried to ban John from returning to England for the next three years but it appears likely that his mother Eleanor persuaded Richard to remove that order.
So in late July or early August John was back in England. At some stage John had given Robert de Ferrers property in London which had belonged to some Jews and it was possibly here that AGATHA gave birth to Joan. Possibly in June of 1190.
Regardless John was back in England by late July early August 1190. here he started to plot against Longchamp. Interestingly enough Lord Mortimer supported John in his moves (see Millicent de Ferrers - above). Clearly it was not safe for John to have a daughter albeit illegitimate as this child was the daughter of John and Lord Motimer's sister in law. John made a decision to move her to Clemence de Fougieres for safety and education.
Richard died and John was crowned King in 27th May 1199. Alan de Dinan was to die sometime before 1199. Clemence was left a widow but with a ward. It was sometime during this period that Ranulph De meschines divorced Contance of Brittany and John saw a chance of holding the border with the Welsh.So in 1202 due to a dispute with John the French King Phillip invaded Normandy and John left Normandy in December 2003 perhaps taking his daughter back to England bringing Clemence with her. John then gave Clemence to Ranulf de Meschines as his wife. Joan was now just across the border from Llwelyn and what better way to hold the Welsh in check than to have Llywelyn married his daughter, In 1204, maybe early 1205 Joan was married to Llywelyn. Some time later Joan was legitimated by the Pope on the basis that neither John nor Agatha were married at the time of conception. This was true for Agatha and true for John as his marriage to Hawise was declard null and void. In being 'legitimated (1226 Pope Honorius III )Joan renounced all rights to the throne for her and her issue.
The final part of the story is much more complicated. It appears that Henry III placed Susanna Fawr as a hostage with Clemence and Nicholas De Verdun. Was this the real Clemence mother of Joan? It would be difficult to have Clemence de Fougieres married to Nicholas as her husband did not die until 1232 (?)some 4 years after Susanna was handed over. It is possible that Clemence and Ranulf were divorced as the marriage of convenience was no longer necessary and anyway they had no children. It would therefore be perfectly feasible that she would have married Nicholas de Verdun earlier than 1228.
This is all, of course, pure speculation but I have tried to make sure that the dates do actually fit and that there is a feasible time line. Lot more work to be done on this.
More About Joan PLANTAGENET:
Burial: Unknown, Tarrant Crawford Dorset, England.
Daughter: Legitimated daughter of King John I of England.
More About Joan PLANTAGENET and ap Iorwerth LLYWELYN:
Children of Joan PLANTAGENET and ap Iorwerth LLYWELYN are:
- +Marared verch LLYWELYN, b. Abt. 1203, Wales, d. 1263, Clifford Castle, Herefordshire.
- +Dafydd ap LLYWELYN, d. 1246.