John Penn, Sr. (son of George Penn) was born 1680 in King & Queen County, VA, and died 1741 in Caroline Co., VA. He married Elizabeth Taylor (Madison)?.
Notes for John Penn, Sr.: The following are Notes that John Penn sent to Pat Penn 12-2000
Here is the PROOF and argument against John Penn and Lucy Granville being related to the Penns of VA.
1. I have be researching the Penns of VA since 1978 and was a subscriber to a newsletter in the late 1970s and early 1980s called "Penn Pals". The alleged father of the four brothers of VA (John, Jr., George, Joseph and Moses) who first appears in the 1720s in Spotsylvania and Caroline Co., VA was John Penn and Lucy Granville, Lucy being the daughter of Sir Beville Granville. I have searched high and low since that time for any record to prove that there ever existed a John Penn who married a Lucy Granville (or a Lucy anybody) or any Penn who married into the Granville family around that time and I have yet to see any primary source record of this couple. The first step to proving that this couple did parent the four Penn brothers of VA (or anybody else) is to prove that the couple actually existed. Once somebody can prove that the alleged couple existed, let's examine the dates of their proven existence and any proof of their children and of their connection to VA or anywhere in America.
2. Primary documents exists who prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the father of the four Penn brothers is the John Penn who died in Caroline Co., VA in 1741. The Caroline Co., VA Court Order Book has reference to the Will of this John Penn being introduced for probate by Elizabeth Penn (no relationship stated) and Moses Penn (no relationship stated) and it being admitted to probate in 1741. Logic says that Elizabeth was the widow of this John Penn and Moses was his son. So John Penn, Sr. and Elizabeth Penn were the probable parents of the 4 Penn brothers of Virginia. There is absolutely no evidence to prove that this John Penn was formerly married to anybody, let alone a Lucy, let alone a Lucy Granville.
3. In 1723 an Elizabeth Penn was named as a Godparent to James Madison, son of Ambrose Madison, of King & Queen Co., VA. In 1727 an Elizabeth Penn was named as a Godparent to Frances Madison, a daughter of Ambrose Madison. Ambrose Madison was married to Frances Taylor, daughter of James Taylor and Martha Thompson, in 1721. Other Godparents to the three children of Ambrose Madison born between 1723 and 1727 (he had no other children) were: Thomas Madison, James Taylor, Martha Taylor, Eleanor Madison, Richard Thomas (who married a Taylor), James Pendleton and Isabell Pendleton. This record show that there is an Elizabeth (probably Madison, possibly Taylor) who was married to a Penn in 1723. This is too early for any of the four Penn brothers to have been married. This is probably Elizabeth Penn, wife of John Penn, Sr., who died in 1741.
4. There is an account book of Ambrose Madison covering the period of 1725-1726 in which about 200 names of residents of VA who did business with him (he was most probably a tobacco merchant) are listed in the account book. This account book is part of the Shane Collection located at the Presbyterian Historical Society in Philadelphia, PA. This account book lists John Penn, Sr., John Penn, Jr., and George Penn. This proves the existence of two generations of John Penns who were adults in 1725-1726. Again, this is consistent with the John Penn who died in 1741 being John Penn, Sr., listed and the John Penn who married Mary and died in Spotsylvania Co., VA in 1773 being John Penn, Jr., listed and George Penn who married Ann and died young in Caroline Co., VA in 1749 being the George Penn listed.
5. There is a 1727 deed in Spotsylvania Co., VA where Thomas Chew deeded 614 acres to John Penn and George Penn. There are two deeds in 1746 from Thomas Chew, one to John Penn for 314 acres and another to George Penn for 314 acres. It seems that these deed all involve the same 614 acrs of land. It seems as if the John and George Penns involved with both deed are the same persons. Therefore, the John Penn involved with these deeds is not the John Penn who died in 1741 in Caroline Co., VA.
The following is from Robert M. Allen's research:
Here is the best case I can put together that Elizabeth Taylor (or perhaps Madison) is the wife of the John Penn who died in Caroline Co., VA in 1741. James Taylor, Sr., (1610-1698) had a daughter, Elizabeth, born 1/12/1684/85. There is no documented history on her. Elizabeth's sister, Mary Bishop Taylor married Henry Pendleton. Henry Pendleton, son of Philip Pendleton, Sr., had a sister Isabella Pendleton who married Richard Thomas. James Taylor, Sr., had a son, James Taylor, Jr., (1674-1729) who had a daughter, Frances Taylor (1702-1761) who married Ambrose Madison (1704-1732). The Ambrose Madison bible contains the birth/baptism record of the their three children: (1) James, born 3/27/1723, baptized 4/21/1723 with Godfathers Thomas Madison & James Taylor, Godmothers Martha Taylor & Elizabeth Penn; (2) Elizabeth Madison, born 6/14/1725, baptized 7/3/1725, Godfathers James Taylor & Richard Thomas, Godmothers Martha Taylor and Elinor Madison; (3) Frances Madison, born 3/6/1726, bapized 4/9/1726, Godfathers James Pendleton, Godmothers Isbell Pendleton & Elizabeth Penn. This Elizabeth Penn is probably the wife of John Penn who died in 1741 in Caroline Co., VA. She is probably a Taylor or Madison. There is no record of an Elizabeth Madison of the right age to be the wife of John Penn who died in 1741. There is the above-mentioned Elizabeth Taylor who was of the right age to be the wife of John Penn who died in 1741. Years of Penn research on my part has led me to the conclusion that the English ancestry of Penns of Virginia and Maryland is not proven.
This is John Penn's line given to Pat Penn in December, 2000
I descend from Philip Penn and Martha Crutcher. Philip's father was George Penn and Ann______(possibly Coleman). The Ann Fleming you mention m. Josiah Payne and had issue. George Penn's father was likely John Penn b. abt. 1680 and d. 1741. In Ambrose Madison's account book in 1725-6 there is a reference to John Penn Sr., primary source evidence that this John Penn was the father of George, John, Moses, and Joseph Penn. The John Penn b. abt. 1680 m. Elizabeth______. Researcher Bob Allen and myself feel she was a Taylor or a Madison...most likely Madison. This John Penn did not marry a Lucy Granville.
There is only one earlier area reference to Penns in what is now roughly Caroline Co. VA. On 5 Oct. 1679 John Pigg and Francis Crane received a land patent of 800 acres in New Kent Co., VA on the North side of the Mattaponi River, adjacent to William Hurk (Hurt?), William Horne, Anthony Arnold, Henry Pigg's mill path, Mill Creek Swamp and John Maddison's Spring Branch, for the transportation of 16 persons to VA, including GEORGE PENN and MARY PENDLETON. Since John Penn named his eldest son George, it could be speculated that this George Penn may have been his father.
My records show that Anne Penn was the daughter of Giles Penn and Joan GIlbert. born 1/21/1617-18, died 2/28/1650-51. She was born in St. Thomas, Bristol, England; died in St. Mary Radcliffe, Bristol, England
The father of Joseph Penn and his brothers George, John and Moses is John Penn b. abt. 1680. The discovery of the informantion in Ambrose Madison's account book (c.1725) confirms that brothers George and John had a father named John. I belive but cannot prove he married Elizabeth Madison, an older sister to Ambrose. I have the following (mostly Bob Allen's notes) for John Penn b. abt. 1680: The Caroline Co., VA Court Order Book (Book 1) has a reference for a Court held on 8 May 1741 to the Last Will and Testament of John Penn, deceased, being presented in Court by Elizabeth Penn and Moses Penn, co-executors. This reference also mentions that John Taylor and Edmund Taylor were witnesses to the will.
I think that this John Penn (any Elizabeth __?__) are the parents of Moses, George, Joseph and John who all trace back to Caroline Co., VA. The Taylor witness to the Will and the Taylor connection to Moses Penn and Joseph Penn are part of the evidence on with I base my assumption. Assuming that this John Penn was the father, I estimate that he would have been born about 1680. I think Moses, George, Joseph and John (Jr.) were born about 1700-1710 (some accounts have slightly earlier estimates for the dates of birth).
The 1704 Quit Rent Rolls for King & Queen Co., VA list a John [Pann] who owned 200 acres of land. Since Caroline Co., VA was formed in 1727 out of King & Queen Co., VA, it seems likely that this John Penn was the same John Penn who died in Caroline Co., VA in 1741. Certainly, he is too old to be any of the 4 brothers (Moses, George, Joseph, John (Jr.).
Ambrose Madison (ca. 1700-1732) married Frances Taylor, daughter of James Taylor and Martha Thompson, on 24 Aug. 1721. James Taylor (1670-1729), father of Frances Taylor, was a brother to John Taylor who fathered Mary Taylor, wife of Joseph Penn, and Catherine Taylor, wife of Moses Penn. There is an Ambrose Madison bible which lists the children born to Ambrose Madison and Frances Taylor. It also lists the godparents of the children. An Elizabeth Penn was listed as the godmother for two of the children (James Madison, born 27 March 1723 and Frances Madison, born 6 March 1726). Other godparents named were Thomas Madison, James Taylor, Martha Taylor, James Pendleton and Isabell Pendleton. - Bob Allen, July 1998
There is an Identure made on the 15 January 1699/1700 between William Stone of the County of Richmond and Francis Meriwether of the County of Essex involving a 200 acre tract of land in the County of Essex in the Parish of Farnham bounded by Hoskins Creeke, John Moodey, John Gatewood, Thomas Wheeler, MARY GREGORY. Said land was sold to William Stone by Richard Gregory of the Parish and County of Rappahannock (now Essex), planter, by deed dated 14 Feb. 1679/80 and acknowledged in Rappahannock Co., Court on 7 April 1680. The witnesses to William Stone's signature were JOHN PENN, John Merritt and Ann Burnit.
Account Book of Ambrose Madison (1725-1726) which was housed at the Presbyterian Historical Society in Philadelphia, PA in 1975. A printed transcript appeared in The Virginia Genealogist, Vol. 19 (1975), page185-188.
The parties of interest listed include:
John Penn, Sr. John Penn, Jr. Collo James Taylor James Taylor, Jr. John Taylor Capt. John Madison Mrs. Issabell Madison Thomas Madison
This reference to John Penn Sr. is primary source evidence that this John Penn was the father of George, John, Moses, and Joseph Penn.
There is no proven Penn line beyond John Penn b. abt. 1680 (most early Virginia surnames get lost in the 17th century), but I would speculate that his father may have been a George Penn b. abt.. 1655 who shows as an endenture to John Pigg in 1679 in New Kent co. along with a Mary Pendleton and 14 others.
The information below was posted by Robert M Allen trying to connect the VA Penn's back to the UK
The PENN family of the early 1700s in King & Queen Co. and Caroline Co., Virginia is said to have descended from the PENN/PENNE/PEN family of Wiltshire County, England. There is strong evidence that a George PENNE, Esq., who issued an order and John PENNE (Merchant), James May (Capt.) and John Maddison (Mate) were all involved in the 1685 transportation to Barbados of convicts who were rebels involved in Mommouths Rebellion and all, but George PENNE, Esq., ended up living in King & Queen Co., Virginia and/or Caroline Co., Virginia by the early 1700s. Does anybody know how this John PENNE or George PENNE, Esq., ties into the PENN/PENNE/PEN family from Wlitshire or Gloucester Counties, England in the early 1600s? Is there some connection with George PENN (circa 1570-1632), Keeper and Officer of Braydon Forest who died in Minety, England, the brother of Giles PENN, Giles being the grandfather of William PENN, Quaker, and Founder of Pennsylvania?
This will amend and supplement the original query. While George PENNE, Esq., may very well be part of the PENN(E) family of Wiltshire (or Gloucester) County, England, he was the High Sheriff of Dorest County, England in connection with the 1685 reference of the transportation of prisioners connected with Mommouth's Rebellion. He received a Warrant from the Chief Justice to deliver the prisioners in his custody to the crew of the "Betty" for transportation to Barbados. One of the crew of the "Betty" was John PENNE, whose crew position was described by the abbreviation "Marcht." which may or may not mean merchant. Does anybody know that the abbreviation "Marcht." mean in connection with a ship's crew?
Children of John Penn, Sr. and Elizabeth Taylor (Madison)? are:
+Joseph Penn, b. Abt. 1712, King and Queen County, Virginia, d. Bef. July 06, 1767, Caroline County, Virginaia.
+George Penn Jr., b. 1706, King & Queen County, VA, d. August 12, 1749, Caroline Co., VA.
+John Penn, Jr., b. November 1710, d. May 13, 1771, St. George Parish, Spotsylvania, VA..
+Moses Penn, b. 1712, Westmoreland County, VA, d. November 04, 1759, Caroline Co., VA.
John Penn, Sr. (b. 1680, d. 1741)
Notes for John Penn, Sr.: