Posted By: MJ Childress - Voegtlin
Subject: Re: Hello Everyone
Post Date: July 07, 2006 at 15:45:26
Message URL: http://genforum.genealogy.com/ochiltree/messages/821.html
Hello Andrew....Great to hear from you again and so happy for your success in school, BRAVO! For the record, you can write as long a message here and or the Ogletree forum as you wish! I appreciate your comments and opinion.
I'm so passionate about Ogletree / Ochiltree genealogy that I tend to do the same, so forgive the length of this message, if it should come to that. Sorry to say, due to my work, I have had no time to further the research that I began, but hopefully soon, I'll have the opportunity. In the meantime, I have some comments.
***The third paragraph where you mentioned the spelling of OGLETREE and it's appearance in the Calendar of Scottish Papers 1530c and in context, "Stewart of Ochiltree" as "Stewart of Ogletree"...Yes, I thought this was amazing in that in my opinion, the logical spelling would have been Ochiltree or Uchiltree as it was commonly spelt during that time.
As with my own name "Childress", the most common variant has been Childers. If a scribe were to write it or abstract the name of Childress, it was 98 percent of the time, Childers or Childrey, mistaken for Childrefs, long S. I just found it unusual and enlightning, that the name of OGLETREE would have been transcibed along with Ochiltree, THAT one. I doubt I am alone in my obvious excitement over the spelling. Right, I did not make more of it then presented, however, I must say, I found it quite astounding, nonetheless.
Having said that, in the earliest Georgia records, 1JOHN OGLETREE was often referred to as Ochiltree, Ocheltree and other similiar spellings. Not that it surprised me, not at all.
As for name change? Yes, there is a disagreement among those on the Ogletree forum. I have to beg difference though, because I have proof that there were those who "assumed" a surname to obtain whatever it was they were required to do. For instance, in my research on those in the Argyll Colony of North Carolina, I have learned of the McLeans or McLea who were actually LIVINGSTON or LIVINGSTONE, same family, two different area's, highlands, lowlands of Scotland. These same two branches of the same Scottish family migratrated to the Argyll Colony of North Carolina, per the actual diary of the McLean. For the record, they also connect to the Ochiltree's in North Carolina. (See CLAN CAMPBELL MESSAGE)
Name change and assuming a name wasn't odd, it happened. Not saying my Ogletree's changed their name, however, what happened in their lifetime before they arrived in America from Scotland or Ireland, I do not know. I only know what I have read of other name changes and assumed names. It did happen.
The DNA rootsweb program is proof enough of that. Within the Childers-Childress DNA, there are those with other surnames who match, was it a shock to them, yes. As far as they know, they were not adolpted. Certainly, there were situations which would cause a man to drop his original surname for that of say his mother and I know for fact that happened in the Childress family. Quite honestly, I would really like to see some of you take the DNA for Ochiltree and Ogletree, I can't as I am not a male, but you could, as well as other's (male only) who carry the two names. This would certainly put to rest 95% of your immediate questions on IF you are part of the Ogletree and Ochiltree's who migrated to America. It is not an exact science, but it can show the mutations and if there is a possible common ancestor.
As for Railey's work, it is a very tired subject, however, I believe it was a collected publication of everyone's files and records to the best of their ability. Seeing how they gave family histories along WITH family tradition, they thought this perhaps would be a starting point. Mrs. Railey was certainly encouraged by the amount of handwritten letters in the Georgia Archives (Atlanta) of which I personally read. These Ochiltree's sent Mrs. Railey their information and sources, she published them in her book. She did not do all the research herself by any means, just what she had received from her collective sources, people who wanted their research in her book. At least this is how I saw it. They were heading in the right place I think, as far as JURA was concerned. If they saw the same Scottish Peerage books as I have, then they got the information from there. It was clearing saying that the lesser sons (younger, not elder) spread out far and wide, even to America.
The concept of JURA ISLANDS for the last place before America, could perhaps be prophetic. From the last research I had done, it was clear to me that the majority of those Scots who were arriving and living in the Argyll Colony were from Argyll and from Jura. Due to Lord Ochiltree having been sent there as he was, over the borders, it is possible they, along with Railey, took that to mean that was where he lived? Also, the confused records I read regarding the elder and younger Stewarts and their both having owned the title and land in the Barony of Ochiltree, I believe, caused even the more accomplished researchers to falter. There were heirs on both sides of this Stewart family to inherit the title of Ochiltree, it is a fact there was a remaining son, perhaps more existed, according to Rev. Thomas Stuart (a direct descendant) who wrote the book, "House of Castlestuart, A Genealogical History." -
Rev. Stuart in his interesting fashion, gave complete details to personal letters, written from Scotland to Ireland by various Stewart cousins to Lord Castlestuart, who oddily enough did not sign his name any other way but this - "Ochiltree and Uchiltree" - He was always, according to Rev. Stuart as being called by his old title, when in reality, they fought the younger Stuarts for the honor of having the title back in their possession. I read the letters myself in the book. There is to much to even mention here, but it was proof that the title existed for whomever claimed it. Accordingly, it was written that they were tied up in the constant fighting in Ireland and had very little to live on, thus they didn't claim the title which was by right, because it had no land, which was lost to them. For the record, Scottish peerages are very confusing! The Stewarts had the title for life, yet the Dundonalds were by 1669c, titled as Lord Ochiltree and still have the title. Come to find out, the Dundonald I corresponded with over a period of a year, his ancestor changed his name from Blair to Cochrane in order to marry the Cochrane Heiress, so he assumed the name. His son was John of Ochiltree and in fact, came to America to seek a Scottish refuge. These Ochiltree Lords were also of the same ilk as the Stewarts, they fought for religious freedom to and ended up in prison. They did share more then that however, they were also connected through marriages in their earlier ancestry.
As for land titles flowing from registers, this is why I am to busy for genealogy right now! I have been in real estate since 1970. I understand your meaning. Those who did own property, left a paper trail. Those who lost property did as well however.
As for the Argyll Colony in North Carolina. David Ochiltree arrived there in 1775c, the year before, 1THOMAS OGLETREE was in the same place, witnessing the will of a CAMPBELL. The names associated in that will connect to Ochiltree and other surnames I've already mentioned. What is the connection there? Why is 1Thomas, brother of 1JOHN Ogletree, Sr. (1735/40) doing IN that place, where was he living, what is HIS connection? This was a major discovery in my opinion, it will lead us to find out more about the earliest proven ancestor my branch has, 1JOHN Sr.
I found those in this colony coming and going from NC to Scotland, they were from old established clans, some younger sons, some running away from whatever reason and circumstances they had. But there IS a connection to Ochiltree and Ogletree. Eventually someone will find it.
Please see - http://www.home.att.net/~hbridges/seed.htmhttp://www.home.att.net/~hbridges/seed.htm -
this is the 454 page book called "Scattered Seed" by Myrtle Bridges, also see Myrtle's Genealogy Page - This would be excellent to have for the main purpose of her sources, history and records of those who landed and were established in the Argyll Colony of North Carolina. Duncan Ochiltree was involved in that place, as well as David Ochiltree and other's whose names we've seen all through the Scottish records.
Thank you for your interpretation of "Heiress" with regard to Scotland. While I read what you wrote, I've read so many documents regarding Scottish families where an only heir was left and just happened to be female, usually, they are females with estates, haven't seen anything to say otherwise. The wording within the Clan Campbell information implied that had the Campbell not married the Uchiltree Heiress, perhaps there would not have been a name change. The wording highly suggests that this female was in line for a large estate. Since we don't have complete clarification on which Archibald he was, it still suggests he was part of the Argyll clan, even perhaps a son or cousin of the Duke of Argyll at that time. Don't hold me to that Andrew, it's just my opinion from what I've read!
And finally, I am glad you mentioned your final point of: COLONSAY as an island off the est coast of Scotland, near Argyll. I have requested from anyone who can rely the message Dan left on some forum in regard to COLONSAY and it's connection to 1JOHN OGLETREE, SR., I have lost the notation. Anyone know it?
I am sure I have more questions, but this is way long! Sorry about that! Thank you Andrew!